From INHERITANCE Issue #4 - Winter 2009

Let’s start off with some background information.
I grew up in a Christian family. Both my parents are pastors and I currently am very involved with children’s ministry. You can say that’s my passion.

Also, as an elder at Evangelical Formosan Church of Irvine, I see myself as a conduit — not only between generations, but also between the different language-speaking congregations. [My wife] Sheila and I continue to branch out and integrate ourselves into different fellowships of the church.

Obviously, not everyone can do this, whether it’s the language or cultural barrier.
I’m blessed that I’m able to communicate in three languages. I grew up in a very traditional, Chinese family where we spoke Taiwanese and Mandarin. We moved to the states when I was nine years old, so I also had my dosage of Taiwan

I think growing up in a pastor’s family molds you to be very sociable, very personal and receptive to different types of personalities and cultures. So that adaptability can be considered a strength for someone who is trying to be a conduit.

What about your work life?
Currently, I work for Staples; I’ve been in retail all my life (about 20-25 years). I firmly believe that the experiences I’ve had in my work life continue to fuel who I am today and are part of what drives me to be a better leader.

Do you feel that your work experiences have directly influenced your church leadership skills?
It’s definitely a complement. And it’s vice versa too: what I experience at work, I bring to church, and what I experience at church, I can share at work. It’s very transparent; I don’t have a switch that lets me toggle between work and church.

Molding of a Leader
How did God get you to this place?
With the church. As you grow up in a pastor’s family, obviously there is that expectation to follow in the family career. And I’m very fortunate that my parents didn’t cast that expectation on me. They had tremendous faith that God was guiding me through my adolescence.

My first experience with serving was with EFC Orange County’s children’s ministry. If you know me today, it’s hard to believe that I’m actually an introvert; I’m shy.

But God used the time I spent telling children Bible stories and Sunday School messages week after week to polish my public speaking skills. And as you know, children are very real, direct ... they can be cruel. They’ll call you out on the spot.

That was 15 years ago ... how else has God prepared you?
I think the second piece He had to work on was the desire to learn. I wasn’t a good student. I wasn’t very academically blessed. And that’s part of the reason why I went through seminary — to confront it. But halfway through, I realized that it truly wasn’t my forté, so I withdrew myself. But I never lost the yearning to learn.

Seminary?
There was a moment in 1994 where the thought of whether I should enter the seminary to serve full-time or to experience a different portion of my life came into mind.

I probably enrolled because I thought it would be nice, since my parents were both pastors. Also, I think that if you’re serving, along your journey, there’s going to be a time where you come face-to-face with that question: “Should I enter seminary?” It’s a really tough question. You pray, seek counsel, talk to people who’ve experienced it.

I took that leap of faith and I went. I worked part-time and went to seminary part-time for three years. Those years were a very difficult part of my life. I struggled through reading the books and doing the reports.

There wasn’t joy in the experience. Not because of disappointment with God — the academic part just overshadowed the experience. To this day, I’m not sure if it was the timing of God, but I got really sick. And the doctor’s warning was that I was carrying too heavy of a load on all ends — work, seminary and church.

I came to a fork in the road to make a tough decision and chose to withdraw from seminary. At that point it was because of my physical condition and I was just tired. I’m sure for the people who serve in the church, that means something deep. But I was just tired ... I needed a break.

I didn’t feel any guilt. And I’m blessed because the people around me didn’t make me feel guilty.

Would one normally feel guilty for leaving seminary?
It could be that you feel guilty for abandoning seminary or something that is beautiful. My parents were supportive. I’m sure there was a sense of disappointment.

But deep in my heart, I understood that was just not my calling. Truthfully, I understood it back then ... but I understand it more now.

After seminary, people would ask, “So now what?” And I would say, “Now what? I go to work and continue to serve with children’s ministry.” I didn’t skip a beat. It was a very natural transition. I took what I learned from seminary and continued to apply it into my ministry and work.

Unless God directs me to another calling, I can say that I’m a lifer in children’s ministry. Even if there’s a difficulty in the road, I don’t think my heart for children’s ministry would lessen or dampen.

Balancing Work and Church
It’s obvious that this event impacted you a lot. But did you ever have thoughts about what was next, career-wise?
The way I look at it, the experience I gained at work, fueled the things that I needed at ministry, and vice versa.

You’re dealing with people. Work allows me to travel, to see parts of this country that I normally would not — to be in touch with people of different races, age group, gender, background. And to really be able to absorb what our society is going through. And that rules a lot of thinking and thought process in what I experience in ministry.

In my mind even though there are two different segments of responsibilities and time that I spent, they’re congruent. I don’t have a switch that says now it’s Friday night, we leave work behind.

How exactly do your church and work worlds intertwine?
I started my career with Circuit City and stayed for nine and a half years, but towards the end my mind started wandering towards the thought of seminary. Halfway through my 10 year mark, I was laid off — and this made me start to question, “Why God?”

Sometimes God uses setback in our lives to lead us into a different type of thinking that we’re not accustomed to.

It’s natural for someone who worked at Circuit City to go to a place such as Best Buy or The Good Guys! because he or she expects to stay in the electronics industry. And that was the path of my job search. But the funny thing is that I had already started first year at seminary.

And each time during the interview process, at the end, I would ask the question, “I’m currently taking classes at a seminary, which requires me leaving at 4:30 p.m. on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Are you OK with that?”

Guess what? At that point, the interview always ended. They said it couldn’t be done. The retail world doesn’t end at 4:30 p.m. — it goes deep into the night

Seems logical.
It’s the real world. And that’s fine.

Until one day, Staples called. We went through the interview and I asked the same question. And there was almost no reaction ... like it wasn’t a big deal. “Sure, no problem. We support you.” I was like, “Wow ... this must be God sent.” And I took the job, but what happened on week one was the stamp of approval that this was the job that God provided. 

Back then, Staples was a small company of 60 stores. During my first week, my boss was traveling in Northern California. On one Tuesday afternoon at 4 p.m., he called me and it blew me right away. Before he hung up, he said, “Don’t forget! You have class tonight ... you need to get ready. It’s 4 p.m.”

I was speechless.

Here he was, the senior vice president of the west coast, and he took the time to call me during his travels to remind me about my classes. It was incredible. I still share this story!

Was he a Christian?
No. Not at all. It leaves you speechless doesn’t it? The stamp of God. We’ve worked side by side for 15 years now. If that isn’t the Lord’s guidance, what is?

Did anyone else help guide you during the difficult times before you got to Staples?
I had two mentors in my life — one at each company. The first mentor told me that I had the gift of organization. I wasn’t aware of that initially. After that, I went back to my office and said, “Wow ... this place is pretty clean.” I started paying attention to the whole gamut of organization and started to read about it. That was back in the early 90s. I also started to really understand productivity and efficiency.

The second mentor is my current boss at Staples, who told me that I had the gift of teaching and public speaking. That statement prompted me to test his observation.

And I started to take that bold step forward in leading training sessions at Staples on how to sell and engage customers. At first it was a few people — response was positive and we expanded to 20-30 people. That was the first patch of confidence for me to further explore that talent.

Then with Fridays and Sundays with children’s ministry, I was eventually speaking in public for the majority of the week. Little experiences, all coming together.

So how has your work experiences helped you with children’s ministry?
Work experience taught me how to interact and work with people of different personalities, backgrounds, and expectations. The people at church are the same — different backgrounds, personalities, different agendas ...

It’s amazing how we can come collectively together and do something as one unit if not for the grace of God.

Plus everyone’s a volunteer. So I constantly have to ask myself, “How do I motivate someone who is already tired ... stretched to the max ... double loaded, to give more on Friday night and Sunday morning and not get paid.” It’s a very tough question.

It’s a real world challenge that we face, and I bring questions like this to work and ask them. So these conversations go back and forth. I would like to say because of what I experience at work, I am a more effective leader at church, that I’m more systematic in my approach towards things.

Could we organize church like a company?
The work environment is very strategic and very systematic. There’s checks and balances along the way to minimize risk and failure. But when serving in the church, it’s a different world. You can’t bring in and rely on those formulas — you have to leave room for prayer, mercy, grace, and miracles.

That’s where you take away the “me” factor and replace it with Him. That’s one of the more important pieces that any church leader should constantly keep in mind — regardless of skill set, when it comes to God’s work, it’s time to replace “I” with Him.

Talents from God
If God equips you with a specific skill set, should you only serve areas that best uses those skills?
I believe that one should explore the talent that God has given them. But it is not enough to just explore that talent. Because if you explore that talent, and that energy and effort doesn’t channel back to the Kingdom of God, then you did not fully utilize what that talent was designed for.

Once again, that’s the delicate balance of:

1. Identifying talent: This can be done through self realization or people around you reinforcing something that you do tremendously well. Over time, the people around you should reassure you that this is one of the talents that God has graced you with.
2. Applying the talent while matching the gospel: This is a tough one. You need to serve using this talent while continuing to grow. You can be a fabulous musician, but if your personality stands in the way of working with others, then the talent is not fully utilized for the Kingdom of God. This is an important time for mentors and accountability partners around you to help you through this.
3. The never-ending quest to improve on that talent: to adapt that talent to the needs of today’s situation.

I would think that would come naturally with any talent.
Well, no ... some people will take their talent today and live on that talent. They won’t try to improve, like the parable about the talents in the Bible. They took that money, lived on it, and buried it.

So God calls us to invest in our talents.
Right. That was on the public speaking part — on the leadership part, I started to explore the concept of leadership because it has such a wide range of definitions.

Sometimes it’s a cliché — we’ve probably seen more quotes written on leadership than love. Around nine years ago at the turn of 2000, I started to give this term some serious thought.

Exploration into Leadership
How did you know God had gifted you with leadership — was it because you were in positions of leadership?
No, it was because enough people had expressed to me, that I have the gift of leadership. So I started to give some serious thought to it.

Prior to that, the leadership was demonstrated in moments of time — sparks of hope. Maybe I would guide a group in the right direction when I took charge of the situation ... but it was never a systematic approach to leadership.

So that’s where you started exploring ...
That’s why I continue to stress this never ending quest to learn. So I started to explore and talk to people. Some people respond out of fear to leadership — I didn’t want to be that kind of leader.

I wanted to become the type of leader that one would want to follow.

I would say it took about seven years for me to say that I’ve found my style. And I am a side-by-side leader.

Can you define that?
A side-by-side leader means I will work with individuals and walk with them through their journey. And normally I have a three year formula for developing a leader ... and this is the formula I’ve applied to work.

That seems like it would take a lot of time and investment.
That’s why you have to find your own style. Some people lead by motivating the troops, some lead by forcing others to be successful, others lead by showing servanthood.

Wow ... so you’ve given so much thought time and analysis that you’ve drafted a three year plan ... takes it to a new level..
If you want to be a leader, you should understand what’s your style because you can’t be a leader to everyone. You have to focus in on your particular style of leadership.

Do you feel that everyone is called for leadership?
“Called” is a very tricky word ... it’s subjective. I believe everyone has characteristics of a leader. But when it does not materialize, it could be because they probably lack the environment or they lack that someone to cultivate them ... it can fade away.

So you don’t feel everyone’s called?
If you’re going to go down that path of being called ... there’s also a component of sacrifice. Leaders are lonely — that’s the bottom line.

So if you believe you are called, then along the way, there’s going to be a trade off that you have to realize. And it’s a path, which is very rewarding, but also very bumpy and choppy at times.

Not everyone can make that sacrifice.

For those who do not make the sacrifice then ... what is their role in the church?
There are roles of prayer warriors, counselors and comforters ... a counselor isn’t necessarily a leader — only in the term of public appearance, public leaders.

A counselor could be leading an individual through a difficult period. That’s why I said leadership is such a broad appeal — sometimes it’s misused.

And people often mistake the folks that are dynamic or public-facing to be the leader, but there are a lot of behind the scenes leaders that we fail to appreciate.

So God places people in “real world” jobs too?
I firmly believe God placed me at Staples for a reason and I firmly believe God placed me in children’s ministry for a reason.

If you believe the world is your mission field ... that’s not the title you carry. It’s not the education you carry, it is the heart that you bring forward. And I think every Christian needs to believe that the world is your mission field.

The separation of society and church is very dangerous. I’m sure you’ve all come across a saying, “count the number of non-Christians in your intimate circle of friends ... if you don’t have any, you’re in trouble.” That’s not what God calls us to be among the people.

Worldly Views
What about Jesus? He always had his support group of disciples.
Definitely. But you should also have a balance of friends that are non-Christian. Maybe the second circle.

In that sense, there is no specific role that God has given you, regardless of title, religious or not.
Yeah, I’d say if you zoom in on seminary, that it’s a very special place that is equipping and training servants of God. But there are also other environments that equip other types of servants of God.

We have to keep that in perspective; pastors and ministers spend their time in the seminary and give their entire life to God’s work in that particular channel.

In today’s society some careers have the perceived notion that they are “good” while other careers just seem self-serving.
If you look at it in terms of classifying, world saving/life saving, as Godly, and lucrative or more worldly positions as more ungodly ... that’s probably a bad perspective on the world and your purpose.

God will call people in different capacities into very different areas of serving that could blow your mind. And I think if you look at the training and experience one has growing up ... it all has something to do with the plan that God has for you.

So what do you think God’s plans are for you in the future?
Lately, I’ve had a thought to one day return to Taiwan, to be involved in some kind of leadership institute preparing young people.

Would you say this thought is God-inspired?
I’ve actually had this thought for about two years now. But I’ve been thinking about it, praying, talking to people, and sharing ideas ... we don’t know if this is God’s plan or not.

But oftentimes, God leads people with the start of a thought. For this, the conviction for children’s ministry is there. The conviction to equip young people is there.

So those two are very evident and continue to receive reassurance for that conviction.

Any last thoughts?
I would say to the young people: this is a journey. It’s a journey of faith.

It is more than how much money you make, and it is more than the title you have. I understand that if I leave Staples today, five years from now, I will no longer be part of their conversation.

I think it’s about the footprint of life you leave behind, the people and the stories that you share ... all that wrapped up under one foundation of sharing Jesus’ love. Use the love of Jesus as the foundation of your life, and whatever you touch and do will become magnified.

I can say that now because I’m getting towards the age where we can start saying things.

Pursue your career and your passion, but don’t let the world shape and mold you into a person that walks away from the path that God wants you to be on.

I’ve come face-to-face with a lot of individuals that have pursued the so-called “trophies of life.” And they’re not happy. They’re dried up and tired, always seeking out the next thrill and the next toy.

And even when they do get the next thing, that moment of satisfaction gets smaller and shorter. It’s like us opening a Christmas present — it’s not the same as the thrill of a five year old opening it.

My grandmother left me with Proverbs. And to this day, whenever I read that book, I think about her.

Balance your life. And be glad that we have the Bible as our guidance that keeps us going.

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Tim's Additional Advice for Those Job-Seeking

What would your advice be for the unemployed who are trying to figure out where God wants them to be?
I’d say you have to have peace with what you do. That’s where the Holy Spirit plays a part. In terms of one that is seeking for their career, go back to talent. Seek and experience the field where your talent is.

And once you go in ... seek peace?
When you’re about to make the decision, you seek peace and you pray for signs.

Usually what you experience in college isn’t what you end up doing unless it’s a specialty. How do you explain that? Many spend four years studying and end up doing something different.

I think you have to firmly believe that steps along the way, and setbacks along the way are part of God’s direction. And i’s really hard to tell someone who is looking for a job, that God will lead you through.

It’s discouraging when you can’t find a job. And I would say, at that point, it’s the responsibilities of the brothers and sister at fellowships and churches to help carry that load.

Carry their load?
Of their emotions, be their selling board. Be their comfort and support. Because it is frustrating.

There’s a social stigma of being unemployed — others perceive those employed as being lazy or unworthy. And for the person him/herself, there’s a feeling that maybe there isn’t a calling from God. It’s important for them to seek help from people, but they don’t always feel that others can understand them.
That’s true. And I would say seeking out in terms of balance. I’m a firm believer in balance.

When you seek God’s counsel, you listen to his voice and guidance, but you must also take action. It takes action and effort on your behalf; they work side by side.

And I’ll say this about being unemployed, from a business leader’s perspective:

We roughly spend half an hour in interviews. Chances are, I’ll spend 25 of those minutes asking questions and leave five minuts for you to ask me questions.

And I’m stunned how many times that applicants don’t have a single question to ask.

Life is short. If you want a job, get a job that you love.

You should ask questions about the company you’re about to work for. What type of boss will you be working for? What kind of culture or ethics does the company share?

After all, you’ll be giving a big portion of your life to that company.

Now these may seem like harsh words to someone who’s been unemployed. But when the day is done, you do want to be in a company that you enjoy.

So they should raise their expectations instead of just getting what they can.
Yes, that would be my harsh counsel and guidance to people interviewing for a job. And I know its different from what you would normally hear on how to seek our your next step or goal in life.

Many people seem to be struggling with this.
And I tend to take on a more realist view of life. The reason I say this is because I see a lot of people who exchange themselves for their career. Their time ... their life.

If you’re climbing the corporate ladder, for every step you climb, you exchange a little bit of your life. So it goes back to balance and having peace again.

When your personal life isn’t right, your work life can’t be right.

If a promotion takes you away from your family or fellowship and you lose that time with them, you may gain a pay increase, but you have just lost a precious support group. Those are things you have to balance out.

What should people do in the meantime between jobs?
We’re designed to work. It’s in our nature and a part of who we are. We have to be productive.

A lot of job seeking workshops say that if you’re out of a job for more than six months, find a volunteer facility and be involved.

Once you’re idle for a long time, you will lose that motivation.

But most importantly, our calling to work should be more than title and salary.

It should be about taking our talents and matchign it up with purpose and letting them go together.

That sounds so easy ...
Yes, but the hard part is finding those two components.

Sometimes people have talents and they know something they should invest in but they’re not too happy with the position it lands them in. For example, I won’t be making as much money, even though I’m gifted in a certain area.
It’s the yardstick. What’s the yardstick you use to measure happiness?

Is it you making more money than your fellow graduates? Is it you having a nice title.. nice perks? Or is it you have a balanced life or having enough time to do leisurely things that you want.

That yardstick’s very important.

And for everyone it’s different. It could be because of your upbringing or your circle of influence.

For me, my yardstick is balance. And everyone is different.

So would it be un-Christianly for someone’s yardstick to be more money ... or higher position?
I would say no. I’m sure at one point, we all have that desire to make more and to want to be promoted. And that’s healthy. That’s the drive in us to push us as motivators. Those are triggers that motivate us.